It has to be reasonable to believe that there at least ten NK military people, either fighting. Training, supervising, working on equipment, etc., in the side of Russia, based on info in The Economist magazine
Update 2025-06-01 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment):
Let's consider where we are in the evidence spectrum
Stong evidence:
Captive NK soldier
Video of them talking, moving, fighting
NK bodies
Equipment
Reports from US/UKR troops who have engaged them
Images from US spy agencies
Images from Ukraine or other military
Claims of US officials <== we are here
Claims of UKR officials
Weaker evidence
Comment has original text of my reply. There are still lots of NO holders
1,000
3.00There is already reason to believe at least 10 NK technical advisors are operating in the Mariupol region. While UA military denied reports that NK soldiers are on the frontlines in Kharkiv, other officials confirmed reports that "10-15 people, mostly, as it seems, officers" are in Ukraine. There is also evidence of NK presence in Melitopol and Donetsk.
@spiderduckpig thanks. I'm not denying this in any way, just trying to be cautious about believing things before very clear evidence is obvious.
There are quite a few NO holders. I'd wonder what they would say or what might convince them to shift views. for me, time plus confirmation of the fact with visual clear widely shared evidence reported on (not just reprinted) by global news orgs, not just ones closely related to the combatant nations and close supporters My background: still mad at nyt for buying and spreading fake Iraq WMD all over the world to start a war, when they should have known it was a setup
@Ernie It seems like this should resolve to yes based on the resolution criteria. What are next steps here?
@VandelayIndustries the details mention the economist. I found this recent article: https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/10/22/north-korea-is-sending-thousands-of-soldiers-to-help-vladimir-putin
It mentions the claims and seem to believe it although no proof is presented. See attachments.
I agree that this is a heavy push towards YES. I think if the claim were about a war which wasn't as propagandized from either side, we'd be there already. I'm just feelung cautious given the space of possible evidence.
STRONG evidence:
Captive NK soldier
Video of them talking moving fighting
NK Bodies
Equipment
Reports from us/ukr troops who have engaged them
Images from US spy agencies
Images from Ukraine or other military
Claims of US officials <=== we are here
Claims of UKR officials
WEAKER EVIDENCE
If there really are lots of soldiers I'd just hope to have some evidence from higher up the list.
@traders NO holders what are your views? I'm looking to have more info on the discussion. We have until June 30
@Ernie I’m a NO holder because there are scant claims, let alone evidence, of North Korean troops fighting in Ukraine, as opposed to the Kursk region of Russia. The title clearly says ‘in Ukraine’, not ‘in the Russo-Ukraine war’.
The difference isn’t just splitting hairs. There’s a significant difference between the DPRK, as an ally of Russia, sending troops to defend against an invasion of Russian territory, and the DPRK itself participating in the invasion of Ukraine.
In terms of what would persuade me that they’re in Ukraine proper: if it were widely reported as fact that they were, I’d accept it. That should ideally be more than reportage of ‘Zelensky/South Korea says…’. At present, the Wikipedia page for the war doesn’t have any mention of DPRK troops in Ukraine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_involvement_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
I’d also echo your concern that there’s a heavy amount of propaganda about this issue. Ukraine benefits from drawing the west further into its war, and there’s precedent that nearly anything can be reported about North Korea without pushback. In particular, that no North Koreans have been captured alive raises serious questions. It strains credulity that they kill themselves as soon as they’re captured.
@Ernie Official statements by pro-Ukrainian politicians may be a consequence of their misinformation and/or desire to misinformate others. All photos/videos I have seen are fakes, made with AI or just with Russian Asians. Based on my knowledge of North Korean political culture, before deciding to send someone to Ukraine, they will release an offical statement against the US imperialism that forced them to make that decision. However, I may change my opinion if I see a quality investigation that includes non AI video of people in uniform speaking Korean with signs of professional terminology, documents, recordings of conversations between people related to the operation, photos of trainloads of people and equipment, and other really credible evidence.
@OP reasonable. Please be aware of the economist is treated as the source for me here. I read its article, with careful inclusion of the phrase "If the Ukrainian claims are true". The article pushes for YES but this phrase makes me in no hurry to resolve no when there's still 6 months left in the original timeline. The goal of this claim is clearly about whether the event actually happened so that's what I'm looking for evidence for, to the standard mentioned
@Ernie understood that you’re relying on the Economist as your preferred secondary source.
I don’t think that article is evidence of YES:
As you say, it only reports statements, but doesn’t accept them as fact. (And also reports a contrary statement from the ‘senior NATO official’.)
More importantly, the statements it reports are regarding DPRK troops training in Russia, preparing for deployment in Russia, not in Ukraine.
Can you confirm that YES is dependent on the troops being in Ukraine proper, not Kursk?
@OP yes your point about the location is also relevant and will be part of the judgement, since it's part of the title of the claim.
@Ernie also: I'm somewhat dreading the case where the soldiers allegedly "return home" and we never get any actual evidence more than we have now. That seems very hard to judge.
The number of international incidensy/questions we don't actually really know the truth about is growing
North Korea has sent about 10,000 troops to Russia to fight in Ukraine, Pentagon says
https://apnews.com/article/russia-north-korea-nato-ukraine-war-9b7357344d988ea32d8ca21f6e22dcc5
North Korean troops seen being equipped in Russia ahead of likely deployment to Ukraine
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/19/asia/north-korea-ukraine-russia-troops-uniform-intl/index.html
Would engineers working in reconstruction count, per the rumour last month?